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The Muslim World needs to clarify itself!!
Hello,
A Muslim man, in San Petersburg ( Russia ), killed a daughter just cause she was wearing a miniskirt, which is probably seen as scandalous for the Koranic law, he actually hired three other Muslims to murder the young girl!
Unfortunately this is not an isolated case but one of the many cases of intolerance and madness against women ( and more... ) from Muslim believers.
This didn't happen in the middle of somewhere like an Arabic village but in one of the most important city of Russia...
Certainly it's not the first time that we heard about similar atrocities and I personally frankly got enough...
I always had hard time in believing that this kind of acts are belonging to a genuine doctrine of the Koran or an interpretation of it...
I know that in the world there are "good" Muslims, but today there are too many horrifying and unacceptable acts made by them in the name of this religion, that I start almost to believe that the vast majority of them share a real brutal belief... I would like to know your opinion at this regard and overall if you think that it would be nice if President Obama, who strives for a "reconciliation" of USA with the Islamic World, will ask the most influential spiritual leaders of Islam to clarify once and for all if the religion of Mohammed is really a violent intolerant credo as it seems unfortunately often... and if these kinds of acts, which are really extreme and foolish, made always in the name of Allah, are legitimated or not by the Koran and by the contemporary spiritual leaders!!... So that finally we will be more aware of the real nature of Islam, because without a CLEAR explanation, a black shadow will be always surrounding them and their religion...
A Muslim man, in San Petersburg ( Russia ), killed a daughter just cause she was wearing a miniskirt, which is probably seen as scandalous for the Koranic law, he actually hired three other Muslims to murder the young girl!
Unfortunately this is not an isolated case but one of the many cases of intolerance and madness against women ( and more... ) from Muslim believers.
This didn't happen in the middle of somewhere like an Arabic village but in one of the most important city of Russia...
Certainly it's not the first time that we heard about similar atrocities and I personally frankly got enough...
I always had hard time in believing that this kind of acts are belonging to a genuine doctrine of the Koran or an interpretation of it...
I know that in the world there are "good" Muslims, but today there are too many horrifying and unacceptable acts made by them in the name of this religion, that I start almost to believe that the vast majority of them share a real brutal belief... I would like to know your opinion at this regard and overall if you think that it would be nice if President Obama, who strives for a "reconciliation" of USA with the Islamic World, will ask the most influential spiritual leaders of Islam to clarify once and for all if the religion of Mohammed is really a violent intolerant credo as it seems unfortunately often... and if these kinds of acts, which are really extreme and foolish, made always in the name of Allah, are legitimated or not by the Koran and by the contemporary spiritual leaders!!... So that finally we will be more aware of the real nature of Islam, because without a CLEAR explanation, a black shadow will be always surrounding them and their religion...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Founder on
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You call yourself a country boy Ray ( this is how described yourself in your profile..) and unfortunately with all my respect for you I'm surely none of your chickens...
Instead of a country man, I'm a man of culture and the world.
I spent my life in Rome ( and Los Angeles too.. ) goin' to prestigious schools, universities and being friends of all kind of "important" people from Politicians to scientists... my house is full of books on "comparative religion". Only few days ago I discussed on a little forum George Dumezil's vision of the Archaic Roman Religion... if you really want a challenge with me or just to know me better just call me on Skype...
Plus after years of personal research on historycal fields what do I have to discover? Furthermore what comparative religion or anthroplogy has to do with the reality of contemporary Islam? Ray you need to convince many political analysts that strongly perceive the real and serious threat of Islamic world fundamentalism to the Western society to give up their visions.
Unfortunately not everybody in this world, like you, like to sound "politically correct" and at the same time to take kicks in the ass!
Ignoring this old historical diatribe amomg East and West you show also a blatant ignorance on history! ... this is nothin' that has to do with comparative religion!!
In front of a serious threat that has already attempted with several episodes ( not just 11 September... ) to remind us that the so called "holy war" is already started we cannot surely reply with your poor and abstruse, blind argumentations!!!
Also it needs to be said that history was made by clever men more than academic world. I remember many man in ancient Rome, blind thinkers, that opposed to a evident proofs a reluctant behavior of mediocre man. Thanks to them that Paganism failed then and 11 of September will be probably replied in future.
History repeats itself, ignorance too....
But let's hear what REALLY a real Muslim of today thinks about fundamentalism, with this strong defense of what is the REAL NATURE of ISLAM TODAY!! ... please just follow this hyperlink:
Ray, in being the moderator here, this will be your last unwanted post of an attack to me that little has to do with the real issue here discussed which is: how to address a fundamentalism that proves with repetitive crimes his brutal reality in today Islam!
So that if you have real suggestions, instead of bulshittin' me with sarcastic insults please tell us.... You can obviously totally disagree with my vision, without being personal, especially attacking me, the founder of this community, that spent energies and monies on this site and surely deserves a better different respect...
ps. .. your sarcasm ignore also that I'm a music composer... the Victory drums will be added soon, like in the military parades of my Roman ancestor soldiers coming back in Rome in triumph!... -
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Permalink Reply by Rebecca (Community Moderator) on
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Paolo, if possible, could you maybe take a little time to explain your concerns about the Muslim fundamentalism in greater detail and depth? Maybe that might help others understand the full picture of what you are pointing too?
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Surely I can Rebecca,
I love every religion of this world, considering them as an attempt of man to get closer to the supreme principle or God! So that I revere Allah as I do for Buddha etc....
Everybody knows also that good people are everywhere and I do think that many great people are among Muslims today!... but this unfortunately is not the real point of the issue and can mislead from a serious objective analysis.
I think instead that our focus of concern needs to be addressed to the core of the problem, which is about the Islamic religion being an extreme, fundamentalist one with martyrdom-like orientation of faith.
This is an undeniable peculiarity of Islam and CANNOT be thought to be shared just by the Islamic terrorists. Instead it's the base of the intransigent Islamic dogma, making this religion a dangerous integralist and violent faith from an alien perspective.
Consequently it would be a big fatal mistake to consider fundamentalism a way of life of a few of Osama Bin Laden's prototypes, rather than a way of expression and philosophy shared by most of the Muslim community.
We need to be clever and realistic, watching all the evidences from past and present days.
This religion is like a cancer spreading in your body. You cannot be tolerant as Pagans were, if you don't want to be annihilated!
That's why I believe that people need to take big responsibility if they deny an evidence that is under our eyes. You don't need to be a foreign diplomat, a PhD professor or military General to see what I see, and which seems straightforward and evident, and even admitted by them in the video above.
Here's below instead a video showing the aggressive expansion of Islam:
Personally, during my stay in Middle east and Asia, I had many confirmations of all the above, to the point that I decided not to go anymore in Islamic countries where freedom and democracy are canceled, and western people at risk for their life!
The videos posted in the front page of this community are speaking for themselves and cannot be misunderstood in any way..
I like to add as a personal testimony that maybe living in Italy, less than one hour by air from Tunisia and really close to the Islamic World and mentality, I wasn't surprised by 9/11. That was for me a "natural" manifestation of the rising belligerent anger of the Islamic Jihad against NOT JUST United States ( bad and naive interpretation ... ), but against a symbol of the Western Civilization...
Some "brilliant" thinkers of this community suggest, after a formal simplistic condemnation of 9-11, to close an eye and after gratuitous sarcastic words to suggest that I study ( what for ?.. ) comparative religion??!!
Plus they suggest to me to study anthropology??!! They also said or imply that I have to better express my "political" views...
Well I'm not a political man, neither do I wonna be, but I'm not either an obtuse and naive dreamer, instead I'm a Roman wolf that can smell the dust in the air...
Doesn't everybody realize that even if I did accept that vast masses of Muslims are not fundamentalists (which by the way I don't ), they do allow Fundamentalists Leaders to dominate the scene and the media!!
Then it seems that this is the final result for every Islamic country: the annihilation of freedom, which makes it useless to try to analyze Islam as a multi-faced phenomenon since the common denominator is the same and is just one: blind fundamentalism!!...
And is not difficult to see that the story will be repeated in every land that they will conquer! In fact the expansion of Islam in the world has always had the same connotates of fundamentalism, suppression of personal freedom of choice and brutality against different religions... among others!!
I ask to Ray: Do we need to risk to be "politically correct" or blind at the point to put the world in the hands of the Muslims? ... risking forever the end of our civilization as it is and to return to an era of slavery, anti scientific and anti democratic!
In my opinion people that are misleading folks with naive analysis, needs to be aware that they can be perceived as personal enemies of Western culture, which was the cocoon of Paganism, whether they are aware or not...
In the case of Ray and Jacyntha it's even worse cause they are well informed people, living in a country shocked physically and spiritually by 9/11!
Now its time with courage and resolution to respond to the attack of Jihad to the Western world, addressing the problem in the right term and watching to the real picture which was unveiled to us by the favorite hero and messenger of "new" Islam which is Osama Bin Laden ....
It is just about time for a serious and radical confrontation, first through diplomacy, with these "Holy warriors" and Leaders of this alien religion against the "Big Satan" and the lovers of freedom, which exquisitely were and are by tradition, among many people of this planet, the Pagans or the Neopagans!
Surely I think that we don't like vague and fake answers from Islam, but instead a real confession which will imply, as I already pointed out in those posts, a real changes of behavior in the Islamic World with a dismiss of any Holy War and a condemnation of integralism and fundamentalism, to getting back to the Sufi principle of love that was the glorious beginning of the Islamic religion!
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I like to add as a final document this video that shows how in reality the jihad or Holy war has already start.
In my opinion the act to consider the real ideological position of all Islam, which includes millions of people, is an evident impossible task.
Instead is not impossible to understand judging by the happenings and reading between the lines that the core of the problem is the adamant brutal ignorance that forms the center of the whole Islamic concept of Jihad, which imply a rebellion from Muslims against not Muslims, with the rejection and suppression of everything which is not Muslim, whethever it takes!... So that at the end we have that: Islam= annihilation of everything which is not Islam.
This is also the end of Islam as a religion as a way to God, as thought by the prophet Mohammed, to become instead a system of criminal actions, a tool of mass destruction and control of freedom of choice.
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Permalink Reply by Ray on
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C'mon Paolo... I am a country boy, I couldn't be sarcastic if I tried. Sometimes people think we poor country folk to be rude, blunt, or even sarcastic but likely we are just speaking our minds. I hope that in consideration of your stated commitment to personal freedom, you will continue to allow me the courtesy of continuing to speak my mind in the forum that you generously make available with your time and money. I will assume, for now, that you are not blocking my posts, as you had threatened, and go on, if you'll permit, speaking my mind. I am politely declining, at least for now, your invitation to Skype, as I am not sure that those sort of "privileged" conversations would benefit this community as a whole.
That said, I wanted to take a moment here to invoke the spirit of the great Celtic shaman/philosopher/king John F. Kennedy, who said,
"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."
Now ask yourself, Paolo, "What is it that I fear?" Political and religious groups that practice terror (both Muslim and non-Muslim) further their goals through the careful and calculated promulgation of horrific aggressive acts, creating generalized fear in a society. Fear weakens societal resistance to terrorist demands, terrorists win.
Shouldn't we be talking instead here about creating a community that is fearless? Do youtube videos citing (very anecdotally) "Islamic" atrocities, presented as evidence, do anything to make the community you claim as yours more fearless, and hence, more capable of tolerance and love?
Perfect love and perfect trust abideth not fear.
Best regards,
Ray
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My Blog is based on an acknowledgment of real facts with a recognition of a danger within and not on FEAR of a possible Islamic threat...
Also for your knowledge, as a good Roman Mithraist I do not embrace fear by default Ray... fear is one thing and the acknowledgment of a threat and a response or your personal defense to it is another issue...
I still do NOT understand your point Ray, it seems to me useless in the presence of a beginning of a real conflict to speak about FEAR?? what an absurd no sense!
It will be much more wise to discuss about how to handle this problem, instead to discuss if we are fearful or we don't need to be...
Even an invitation to underestimate the danger is a nonsense when you have a country like US being attacked and shocked on 9/11, with many victims by a surprise coward attack!
Did you realized that as your ex President said the world from that day has changed?
I invite you to show more attention to our discussion...
The videos you are watching are not based on FEAR, but are related to a series of real attacks against Non Muslims targets by Islamic forces!!!
Ironically, just to show you the no-sense, It is cause we don't have to FEAR the threat of Islam that we need to take action!
I really think that you have confused ideas about the difference between Fear and Danger...
I'm absolutely not fearful at all, but I like to see how the situation with Islam really is. Your obstinate refusal to comprehend what is clearly in front of your eyes is amazing, and maybe reflect your internal personal FEAR to accept this threat!
You need to change your focus from a vague and philosophical outdated concept to a more real and consistent concept.
Furthermore as a good Pagans I think we are called to some kind of action, that needs first to start from a recognition of the current status of things.
This mean a recognition, especially after 9/11 of a state of war with Islamic Jihad.
Well, what is the next step?... simple to know from Islam itself who is for Jihad and who's not.
Then obviously if nothin' will change in their actions and behavior, as for Global warming or any other kind of danger, we need to take any action it takes to save our precious freedom and safety!
Then I hope is clear that not Fear is in discussion or need to be discussed here, even less a fear of Terrorism in general, but to acknowledge that a war is initiated by an expansionistic force that build on violent fundamentalism his credo. That's Islam today!
What about J.F.K. or ... Julius Caesar??...which by the way both underestimated their own vulnerability and were, unfortunately, brutally murdered ... but let them rest in peace...
Ray, I think that you will defend your house and family from an aggressor that is attacking or threatening you.... will you?
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There are no Muslims attacking my house Paolo... Precisely my point. I would venture, too, that there are no Muslims attacking your house either. Take a look at your front page Paolo, seriously, five of the six posted videos are anti-Islamic propaganda pieces. What do you expect to gain from this? Is Islam your "straw man"? Do you hope to build your community based on some common hatred of the Islamic world? What kind of action do you suggest we take "to save our precious freedom and safety"? Violent action?
I don't know about you, but I feel pretty free and safe. In fact, the only freedoms that I have been missing lately are the ones that my government has taken away in the name of my personal safety...
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Permalink Reply by Silvio on
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The Muslim religion is growing around the world and I'm afraid of what it means to our freedom of thought and choice. I don't want to wake up someday and realize that the Muslims are ruling my country with their narrow view of the most important questions. We can't forget that the Muslim religion is spreading its seeds all over the world mainly the third world where pooverty is a very big problem. We can't forget that the third world is still very sexist, the men rights prevails over the women rights. It's a perfect marriage pooverty and sexism to open the doors to the Muslim beliefs. In many places people don't have any reason to live just survival. I saw what poor people without education and food in their stomach are capable of. I grow up in a very poor neighborhood of my town. Brasil is still a very poor country. The narcotraffic is stealing the children from their mothers, its not so different from the terrorism question. Here we have the "favelas" very poor towns inside the cities where there is a paralel government made of traffic bosses. I ask myself what could happen if the Muslim religion gets into the favelas. Certainly it wouldn't be a good thing. I'm not afraid of a terrorist attack but I can't trust a people who believes blindly in their priests and politicians without questioning why things have to be the way they are. I can't accept the Muslim (and also the Christian) fundamentalism because it steals our freedom of thought. All the people are capable of good things if we give them conditions. But if you torture them, don't give them food and steal their rights they will be vulnerable to such things as Muslim religion, I mean, they will show their worst side. We can't close our eyes to the real danger of such things. I'm not a Christian, if someone beats my face I will not give the other side. If we continue giving them the other side of the face they will dominate us all. We don't want to be dominated! I don't mean to make another war, the world doesn't need it, we don't want it too! But we have to question our liders. We have to discuss all the important questions till we find the middle point in wich the balance rests.
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Ray your obstinate refusal to admit or acknowledge the reality of happenings is not just embarrassing ( and pathetic .. ) but is against your interests too!...
I remind that 9/11 was not a nightmare but a real event!
9/11 is a part of a precise strategy of Islamic Fundamentalism which includes the control of the world through the destruction of everything which is not in tune with their credo.
In front of this real and tangible danger, whether we are fearful it is also completely secondary issue ...
I repeat to you the unanswered question, Ray, meaning that your house, as for every good patriot, includes ideally your country ( aren't you American ?... ), then:
Will you defend your family and your house from an attack from an alien enemy? .... seems obvious that you won't, if you deny 9/11, which WAS an attack to your House ( your country! )....
I hope Ray that you won't deny that 11/9 ever happen!...
Furthermore, as Donna and Auspex wisely are remarking, here is at danger and risk the freedom of the whole planet, which is, I believe not just mine or your house, but the HOUSE of all, Pagans or not!!
THAT'S why I am discussing in a Pagan forum this issue, not certainly just to start another crusade, but to prepare the advent, hopefully, of a new world, which believes and profess Freedom, based on clear rules, that includes the banishment of all fundamentalists Credo, the Islamic one first!!
I mean the banishment of Islamic fundamentalism, not to erase the whole Islamic religion!
So that Islam needs to clarify itself, as for the issue of this discussion...
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There was a BIG attack and it's even got a name: 9/11.
Ray, that WAS our house.
Now step back and really try to perceive what Paolo is saying in his postings.
He has stated what he asked for in the very beginning of this discussion, and has since tried numerously to help you see that there really is an issue towards which a conversation between nations could be directed.
If you feel safe and free now, but feel that pinch from 'freedoms that I have been missing lately'.... why do you think that is? Isn't this also because of the attack on 'our house' back on 9/11? If that is true, which it is, do you think that threat has been alleviated? And what about what is happening in Pakistan?
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I repeat that the issue discussed here is: the wide spread concept of Muslim Fundamentalism in contemporary Islam religion, as a crime against humanity and Freedom and the needs of Islam to clarify his position!
All the rest that can be related to this fundamentalism, like for example the harming of women or brutality against animals, which are horrible things, are consequences of this extremism and Fundamentalism and in being consequences are secondary, then not really in discussion here!!...
Please can somebody address the topic? If you guys even after 9/11 don't perceive and don't see the danger and the challenge from new Islam just say it clearly and without metaphors...
I keep wait...
ps. .. I obviously, for my already damaged mental sanity, even with all my love for this member, I need to ignore Desfrata post and related implications, especially when he says that don't care about the Islamic threat, but seems just to care for women!!??... first our friend is completely not interested in any crime related to terrorism & fundamentalism, legitimating the right to kill or just observing that with a Zen detached attitude, then he play the horns of a Robin Hood for women!!? why ?..boh! ... who knows... just nuts... I see just inconsistent contradictory sentences, like mental garbage out of confusion...
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Brother I think you are misunderstanding things. Who asked for a war here? Nobody!!! We are asking for clarification about the fact that the Muslim fundamentalism approves such practices as terrorism and crimes against women and children. It's not about to be at this side or to be at another side. For sure there are lots of good people around the world but many of them have been oppressed by such brutal fundamentalism government systems. We can't keep our minds open to such ignorance as the fundamentalism of Muslim faith (or Christian too). I don't want to throw stones on non-virgin girls on the squares as the ancient testament preachs! As Pagans we are we have to keep an eye on the Priest and another on the Mass. I mean, we have to pay attention to what is happening silently around us, in our backyards I could say, what is happening around the world while we are distracted with our modern life style and its problems.
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