Wicca Wiccans Pagans and Free Souls.. live different.. be Neopagan!
Intolerance against Paganism and in general ...
After watching the negative reaction of somebody to the rising of Paganism with the new cults and religions, like Wicca, Goth and Neopaganism, I want to know your opinion about it. And furthermore to discuss world Intolerance in general also ....
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Lady Bronwyn on
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My husband, who is much more knowledgeable about these things, suggested the Secret Service and stated that if you sent them a picture of that sign, they would probably be there this week. He also said that the FBI would be interested in knowing about this.
Donna said:I live in West Georgia. I was in Eastern Alabama when my homes were burned. I appreciate the link to the Secret Service. I wonder if they would actually follow up. This man has been doing this for years and the local Ku Klux Klan meets there regularly.
Lady Bronwyn said:Donna:
Uttering a threat against the President or President-elect is a federal offense and you should contact the Secret Service. Here is the URL: http://www.secretservice.gov/ and follow the link to contact them. You might take a picture of that sign and attach it to your e-mail to the Secret Service, if you wish.
I am so sorry to hear that you were burned out in Alabama.
I don't know where you live, but what you have reported is outrageous!
Donna said:Paolo, I live in an area of the world where Christians have almost complete control over the politics and the law. The Christians where I live seem to have come to a consensus that Barack Obama is the "Anti-Christ" and many of them have openly called for his assassination. One prominent business man here even has a sign in front of his establishment that reads, "Barack Obama, We have a dream for you- Lee Harvey Oswald". In this area people have had their children seized by Child Protective Services when someone has called them and reported that the parent was practicing witchcraft. We are not allowed to buy alcohol on Sunday or even order a glass of wine in a restaurant. My grandson was punished by his third grade teacher for not saying "the blessing" before lunch in "Jesus's name". Now that he's in high school, there is discussion in class during which other students assert that a person cannot be moral if they aren't Christian and the teacher was very critical of my grandson's disagreement with that statement. My home was burned in Alabama because I had symbols on the garden door from my bedroom and crystals on the front porch all of which were interpreted that I was practicing Satanism. These people hardly seem to be on a path to God but rather to be blocking that path. Do you have any comments on this and what is your concept of this idea of an "Anti-Christ" and that President Elect Obama has been called that?
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Permalink Reply by Founder on
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As we can see, our "demonization" is based on ignorance, surely we can take action, but the smartest and powerful move will be the one to legitimate our Pagan supremacy through historical proofs and in getting also the legitimate place as Mother of all religions. This way we will win without...fighting! .. it will require time but will be a major achievement....
Otherwise we will just play in a perverted endless loop!!
Sy Calaelen said:Oh man where do I start... Well apart from the two obvoius forms of negative back lashes against wicca and paganism and any other new age/neopagan releigion, which is Christianity/Islam and Hollywood, there are people out there who hate and fear what they don't know or understand. I was fortunate enough to meet a man who was open to my beleifs and religous path. Sadly, I know of may people Christian or not who say that Wicca is 'weird' and for people who deserve to die. That alone offended me so I stopped talkin to these individuals. But life as a young person sucks a little anyway. The whole world seems to beleive that their is only one dominating religion. Its like a race to be the best and sadly that's kinda silly. Be a person with your own beleifs, but respect others, not badger them into your religion. Its not fair or nice...
As for Hollywood, well thats obvious. There is a lot to talk about when dealing with Witchcraft and so you only get the bad or negative snipets and exaggeration in films and that sucks. It will change, and like many writers out there like Silver Ravenwolf and upcoming writers, like myself we want to show people that neopaganism is still hardcore and fun, and not what Hollywood or Christianity or others say it is. If your a proud (or not yet) Neopagan then all I can say is one theing: Have fun and live life, forget what others say, only you can be true to yourself. BB xx
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I have some ideas about what to do... I'm writing a little book-manifesto about that. Just a little bit of patience meanwhile and soon I'm gonna expose to the public my "practical" ideas and actions to take!
Donna said:
I agree with you, Paolo. But how do we do that? The historical proof is already there. These roots of religion are taught in universities and colleges all over the world. The people who are at the root of the demonization of our people aren't swayed by facts or anything else. They are the majority. They are in power. They control what is taught in our schools and what laws are made. These people celebrate ignorance as proof of Godliness. Their religion has stated that it is a sin to be anything other than one of them. Perhaps what we need is a open and lengthy discussion of ways to promote the truth without going to jail or being ostracized or worse. Perhaps, like all of the other civil rights campaigns, we will not be able to avoid the anger. Just look at the posts and discussions on this site and ask yourself how it represents us to the Christians and Muslims. It represents us as people who routinely do the things that their religion forbids. They view any temptation on their part to be tolerant as the work of Satan trying to possess their souls. To ask the people who currently hold the power in my country would be the same thing as asking them to damn their own souls and to cooperate in the damning of the souls of others. I would be very interested to know where our President Elect stands on the question of whether or not a Wiccan or any other Pagan would be acceptable as a national leader. You and I both know that our people are no different from anyone else and that one of us is just as likely to be able to successfully lead this country as anyone else. But, the people in power assume that, if they allow us true equality, we will try to take their children and turn them all against Jesus. I have known many Jews who find the Pagan religions to be just fine with them. They have actually cited documents to me to let me know that their religion came from the Ancient Pagans. But, the Jews tend to identify themselves as scholars. The Christian religion, on the other hand, has studiously and determinedly rewritten history and the books in the Bible and the Torah to suit their agenda of world domination. They call it "saving souls for Jesus". We've just this year elected a man of mixed race to the Presidency of the United States. We, just this year, saw a woman on equal footing in a bid for that same office. What we're asking is for the religion of the majority to completely change it's religious and moral beliefs by validating us as equals. What do we do? You say education, but I say that the information is readily available and even known to them but they will not read it and they deny it's relevance and tell each other that it's all the lies of the Devil. Besides, they say, Jesus was born and that completely changes everything". People will only believe what they WANT to believe. I completely agree with you about what needs to be done, but how?
Paolo R. said:
As we can see, our "demonization" is based on ignorance, surely we can take action, but the smartest and powerful move will be the one to legitimate our Pagan supremacy through historical proofs and in getting also the legitimate place as Mother of all religions. This way we will win without...fighting! .. it will require time but will be a major achievement....
Otherwise we will just play in a perverted endless loop!! Sy Calaelen said:
Oh man where do I start... Well apart from the two obvoius forms of negative back lashes against wicca and paganism and any other new age/neopagan releigion, which is Christianity/Islam and Hollywood, there are people out there who hate and fear what they don't know or understand. I was fortunate enough to meet a man who was open to my beleifs and religous path. Sadly, I know of may people Christian or not who say that Wicca is 'weird' and for people who deserve to die. That alone offended me so I stopped talkin to these individuals. But life as a young person sucks a little anyway. The whole world seems to beleive that their is only one dominating religion. Its like a race to be the best and sadly that's kinda silly. Be a person with your own beleifs, but respect others, not badger them into your religion. Its not fair or nice...
As for Hollywood, well thats obvious. There is a lot to talk about when dealing with Witchcraft and so you only get the bad or negative snipets and exaggeration in films and that sucks. It will change, and like many writers out there like Silver Ravenwolf and upcoming writers, like myself we want to show people that neopaganism is still hardcore and fun, and not what Hollywood or Christianity or others say it is. If your a proud (or not yet) Neopagan then all I can say is one theing: Have fun and live life, forget what others say, only you can be true to yourself. BB xx
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Permalink Reply by AJSwicca on
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Yes, I know what you are going through, damn I really don't like pre- judgemental reactions, they look at you like you are an alien..............especially in Missouri and Kansas.
Donna said:I'm anxious to know what happened with your child's Kindergarten class. I can't imagine what your daughter must have felt about being discriminated against like that. The problem often is that even though there are laws against religious discrimination they are frequently ignored even on an official level. That pre-K teacher's actions were shameful. I had to fight for my grandson when he was in 2nd grade because his teacher punished him for refusing to say "the blessing in Jesus Christ's name" standing in line in the hallway waiting for lunch. A school board only has to hear from an attorney one time about this crap. I have listened to many parents say they won't allow their children to watch Dragon Tales or Sesame Street on PBS because it teaches "Satanism and belief in the supernatural which leads to Satan". This is what I mean when I refer to the currently dominant religion in the U.S. brazenly recruiting and brain washing our children.
I understand from Tedd Savage that the military now puts those denotations on dog tags and burial stones.
PaganKsMom said:Intolerance in any and all forms is a shame. I am a young Pagan woman living in Kansas. I have been fired from jobs, been spit at and so much more since being openly Pagan. My 4 year old's pre-k teacher called me for a parent teacher confrence because my daughter had taken her favorite book about Ancient Gods and Goddesses to school for show and tell. Apparently this children's book wasn't appropriate. Yet the teacher was reading a book about the life of Jesus that another student had brought for show and tell, to the whole class. I had to fight for the right in the United States Army in Basic Training simply for the right to religious observation and for my dog tags to accurately represent my religion. (which btw the latter never occured)
Now, I have to admit that this upsets me and yes, at times makes me angry. I could get angry and show it, and cause a commotion. But if I want people to actually learn that I am not "evil" I must teach them by my actions, not my anger. It is a hard path to walk. But anyone who takes up a pagan or "alternative" (I can't stand that term) path, must understand the possible hardships that my be endured. Do not misunderstand me though. I in no way condone violence or vandalism perpetrated by people of any religion against another. IT IS WRONG. Plain and simple. It saddens me to see the hatred that dwells in so many peoples hearts. And just as Torey posted in an earlier comment, it is sad to see the intollerance INSIDE the Pagan community against those of like minded paths. As I like to say... a fundie, is a fundie, is a fundie, no matter the religious affiliation. And hate is just that, hate. No matter how you justify it. Before you decide against a person for whatever reason take the time to get to know them or at least to understand their beliefs. Knowledge is power, and that power can set you free from the hatred that pollutes our world on an every day basis.
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Permalink Reply by Jim on
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My biggest problem with intolerance is deciding when someone simply disagrees and when the line is crossed. We had a very bitter political battle on gay marriage in California and I live in a small, mostly Christian community. While I respect peoples right to believe what they will and to make their voices heard, I still feel ripped apart every time I read the letters to the editor in our local paper which still appear a month latter. Both sides of the issue are so angry. They both accuse each other of intolerance, hatred and ignorance. Are they both right? As a Pagan, I am still in the broom closet, bat cave, or whatever concealing place of safety you know of, mostly because of where I am. I think and feel that we should be able to disagree in a healthy manner, maybe even laugh about our disagreement, and go have lunch.
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Permalink Reply by HEXtraordinary on
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I was fortunate to learn theology at a VERY young age. My father was a lutheran minister and while he was attending seminary (I was about 9 yrs old at the time), I was reading & looking at his theology books and asking a lot of questions. Fortunate for me I learned to read really well at a young age or I'd never have learned as much as I did!
My father was probably the BEST teacher when it came to World Religion. I learned about every major religion and countless not-so-known faiths as well. My dad was probably one of the best Christians I knew because he showed me his path...showed me other paths and then let me CHOOSE when I got old enough. If all Christians could be that openminded, it'd be a better place.
After 20+ years of study, I can spot a bible-thumper, a dabbler, and a bigot from 50 yards.
We learned Pagans have a responsibility to the younger generations to guide them properly and not fill their heads as well with garbage pagan propaganda and books filled with 'fix-it-quick' spells.
It AMAZES me what is allowed to be published as GOOD pagan material nowadays.
Some Wiccan & Pagan authors have been publishing books that contain NOTHING but black magic and manipulative spells! It's appalling! If we want to present our Earth-based faiths as peaceful paths or alternative religious paths and PREVENT or REMEDY harassment from Christians and zealots, we must have some level of responsibility in saying NO to the garbage that these Pagan authors are pumping out - preying on impressionable young kids and neophytes - for nothing more than $$$$! Educate our young pagans to say no to the books that promote manipulation and the black use of magick and teach others to spot and STEER CLEAR of the dabblers & power-seekers giving us a bad name.
Jade said:i have been judged by alot of wiccans. they think that just because i have not been in a coven that i shouldnt have a pentacle tattoo'd on me. they dont think i am a 'true' wiccan. i believe that we should respect everybody no matter where they are on there path and what there path should be.
Torey said:As a Satanist, I have to say that I am disappointed with the intolerance that I have found AMONGST PAGANS towards their own kindred.
I can't even number the amount of times that I have heard WICCANS say things like "evil Satanists" and "we protect Christians against evil Satanists" or "if I met Satan, I'd smite him in the face".
Some Pagans do exactly what they profess to hate Christians doing to them - and I seek to bring all of them down who do it in order to end the hypocrisy and double-standard.
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If only life were that simple.. the Palestinians and Israelies would be 'having lunch' by now. LOL
Jim said:My biggest problem with intolerance is deciding when someone simply disagrees and when the line is crossed. We had a very bitter political battle on gay marriage in California and I live in a small, mostly Christian community. While I respect peoples right to believe what they will and to make their voices heard, I still feel ripped apart every time I read the letters to the editor in our local paper which still appear a month latter. Both sides of the issue are so angry. They both accuse each other of intolerance, hatred and ignorance. Are they both right? As a Pagan, I am still in the broom closet, bat cave, or whatever concealing place of safety you know of, mostly because of where I am. I think and feel that we should be able to disagree in a healthy manner, maybe even laugh about our disagreement, and go have lunch.
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It seems that intolerance, whether from a Pagan or Non Pagan side, is generated mainly by two opposite mental diseases, which are typical of the "Ego trip game": ignorance and/or academic knowledge... which are both excellent propellers to generate an obtuse confusion among others!
The real knowledge we want, is the Superior knowledge, which can be obtained "only" by vertical ascent of our soul-mind, in the so called "flight of the soul".
Results are that you become enlightened and consequently tolerant....
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We are moving, really slowly, towards refining our "wild" or inferior nature, so that I'm observing from this perspective, and in refining this inferior "nature" I'm interested. You mentioned the word nature, but even nature follows "herself" in this unknown trip, continuously creating and destroying. Also nature has different levels of being and "competition"... which doesn't mean that competition can include by default intolerance or obtusity and so on...
Also, as an example, the concept of strength and respect among animals or other natural forms, generally doesn't include intolerance or contain traces of our human "malice", which instead its generally our usual meter of judgement!
So that, dear Ted, I cannot sympathize with your "simplistic"generalizations...
Tedd savage said:Listening to this discussion, my dear Paolo, at some point, makes one wonder about tolerance since superior knowledge is only true if it gets superior results. Nature is full of competition, so fighting is natural. Nature is
full of cooperation so cooperation is natural. Nature is full of beings who run away from problems. So, getting away from the blue meanies by moving very fast away is natural. Now since the blue meanies seem to be every where, they do have lots of young, and since they are on a world slowly becoming populated by humans only. One does think this tolerance thing, while admirable, may be for all practical purposes impossible. If the intolerant out breed you, perhaps they shall have the last say. Also if they are in the majority, it might be better not to breed or even see another day.
Paolo R. said:It seems that intolerance, whether from a Pagan or Non Pagan side, is generated mainly by two opposite mental diseases, which are typical of the "Ego trip game": ignorance and/or academic knowledge... which are both excellent propellers to generate an obtuse confusion among others!
The real knowledge we want, is the Superior knowledge, which can be obtained "only" by vertical ascent of our soul-mind, in the so called "flight of the soul".
Results are that you become enlightened and consequently tolerant....
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Permalink Reply by Torey on
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I just have to ask - why condemn those who happen to practice a faith which is based upon the indulgence of the Ego? Not all practitioners of Left Hand Paths are murderers and criminals. By condemning those paths which DO make use of 'black magick' and 'manipulative magick', you are simply shifting the focus off your own path and setting up those who (let me remind you, PEACEFULLY practice their craft - even if it goes against the ethical convictions of the status quo) practice self-indulgent or godself paths as the fall guy.
In other words, since I practice what you may call Black Magick and I also practice what you may call 'manipulative magick', does that mean that I am deserving of the wrath of the Christians? Is it fair for you to point the finger and say 'go get HIM! He's the devil worshiper! We Wiccans and other Pagans are GOOD!'.
That is no better than what the Christians are doing to you.
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Torey,
Absolutely I DON'T CONDEMN ANYBODY by default, even if definitely I prefer some path or doctrines compared to others!!
Judgement, if minimal, doesn't involve Intolerance, which is always blind and obtuse!! Judgement is in tune with all past philosophical tradition!
But you need to understand that in being myself an "observer" I'm not really interested whether you or I are indulgent with yours or my personal Ego !!!
With the involvement of the Ego, no matter which path is taken, we need to understand one basic point: if you keep consciously "observing" your Ego ( which is naturally present in us by default ) in its multiform activities, you start the beginning of what is called the vertical ascent. Consequently with this "ascent" your soul gets expanded... then whether you practice black, white or .. red magick it really doesn't matter!
The important consequence is that your consciousness becomes enlarged and consequently you are becoming more tolerant and little by little even this last intolerance will disappear... This is because you became conscious of the many faces of this unknown God and His multiform aspects. Under these circumstances also you are givin' more space to your understanding rather to your criticism.
At the opposite if you unleashed completely the Ego, you are becoming dominated by him. Then I like to say that we need to celebrate our present incarnation with the Ego at the maximum, but as the ancient Latins said "Cum granu salis", or with a kind of control if you like!...
I hope that you folks realize that I'm a "mystic" visionary and philosopher and that from this perspective I see life. So generally I don't judge third party beliefs, even if they are in contrast with my personal thoughts. Surely sometimes I can express my vision or remarks!
Overall I'm interested in creating a different "magickal" approach to our everyday life, hopefully breaking this repetitive loop that creates the "imperfect" and Intolerant world where we live.
Torey said:I just have to ask - why condemn those who happen to practice a faith which is based upon the indulgence of the Ego? Not all practitioners of Left Hand Paths are murderers and criminals. By condemning those paths which DO make use of 'black magick' and 'manipulative magick', you are simply shifting the focus off your own path and setting up those who (let me remind you, PEACEFULLY practice their craft - even if it goes against the ethical convictions of the status quo) practice self-indulgent or godself paths as the fall guy.
In other words, since I practice what you may call Black Magick and I also practice what you may call 'manipulative magick', does that mean that I am deserving of the wrath of the Christians? Is it fair for you to point the finger and say 'go get HIM! He's the devil worshiper! We Wiccans and other Pagans are GOOD!'. That is no better than what the Christians are doing to you.
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I hear you.........girl.....I can't believe your home was destroyed by the neo-impulsive-christ syndrome...........that sucks. Karma for them will be stabalizing effect for you. Like your attitude, I have pagan symbols out and inside, also.........still get the ignorant at my door. Now, I am tolerant with ignorance, but those people take it to another level. I always ask them if they knock on the doors of the poor, and they never know what to say, truly a business, tax free..........unfair, untolerant, and just no regard to the Goddess, and her true ones.................I am so in need of patience for these people, like the seventh day adventors...............EEEEEEEEEEKk, make my skin crawl every time I send them off my land. Parasites...................all of them.
Donna said:Paolo, I live in an area of the world where Christians have almost complete control over the politics and the law. The Christians where I live seem to have come to a consensus that Barack Obama is the "Anti-Christ" and many of them have openly called for his assassination. One prominent business man here even has a sign in front of his establishment that reads, "Barack Obama, We have a dream for you- Lee Harvey Oswald". In this area people have had their children seized by Child Protective Services when someone has called them and reported that the parent was practicing witchcraft. We are not allowed to buy alcohol on Sunday or even order a glass of wine in a restaurant. My grandson was punished by his third grade teacher for not saying "the blessing" before lunch in "Jesus's name". Now that he's in high school, there is discussion in class during which other students assert that a person cannot be moral if they aren't Christian and the teacher was very critical of my grandson's disagreement with that statement. My home was burned in Alabama because I had symbols on the garden door from my bedroom and crystals on the front porch all of which were interpreted that I was practicing Satanism. These people hardly seem to be on a path to God but rather to be blocking that path. Do you have any comments on this and what is your concept of this idea of an "Anti-Christ" and that President Elect Obama has been called that?
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