Wicca Wiccans Pagans and Free Souls.. live different.. be Neopagan!
Intolerance against Paganism and in general ...
After watching the negative reaction of somebody to the rising of Paganism with the new cults and religions, like Wicca, Goth and Neopaganism, I want to know your opinion about it. And furthermore to discuss world Intolerance in general also ....
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Founder on
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How we can fight against ignorance-intolerance ?
1. Showing our historical priority status over that with historical proofs.
2. Creating a new united corpum of doctrines for the main doctrinal branch of Neopagansim, within respect for the differentiations among personal beliefs and cults ( This implies an "enlightened" reformer directing the effort.. ).
3. Rising to a level of Planetary Religion, which implies a big number of accolades ( This implies a new Pagan oriented evangelization of the masses directed by a leader.. ).
This way, hopefully, growing in number, we will be surely respected and legitimated.
Overall unity among us is of major importance!!!
Among things to do to achieve that, Paganism needs to redefine itself clearly as a united movement, even embedding some differences among his followers.
If we fail, we won't succeed in creating a strong antagonist force to the world's contemporary religions. Consequently we won't be heard by them...
Creating a new united Paganism called Neopaganism or the New Paganism
is a big part of my goal & mission !!
Donna said:You said, "the Pagan can be just as intolerant as the Christian". An Athiest friend said that same thing to me a few days ago. And, I know that it's true. My problem is that, right now, the Christians are powerful and they are using their power to legislate their religious beliefs into the law of the land and I don't see Pagans doing that. I consider this to be an attack. So, my question is this. How is it possible to fight this infringement of our moral and Constitutional rights in a way that shows Pagans, in all their myriad of beliefs, to be a integral asset to society by virtue of our beliefs? How do we fight against legal persecution and the intentional recruitment of our children? How do we fight a belief system that has managed to convince the average person that they are the good and the right and that we are all either deluded mental cases or evil? How do we go about doing this in a way that clarifies who we are and what we believe and why and what our true relationship is to Christianity and Islam and Buddhism and virtually every other religion in the world? I believe that this has to be an active pursuit and not a passive one. I came to this site with prejudices that I didn't even know I had and within a short time, through dialogue and education, I saw what I had thought from a new perspective and saw the relationship between the way my ignorance prevented me from realizing my intolerance and the way the Christians think about us as Pagans. Education is obviously the key but the method of educating without creating more hostility is the question.
Hugh said:Torey said:As a Satanist, I have to say that I am disappointed with the intolerance that I have found AMONGST PAGANS towards their own kindred.
I can't even number the amount of times that I have heard WICCANS say things like "evil Satanists" and "we protect Christians against evil Satanists" or "if I met Satan, I'd smite him in the face".
Some Pagans do exactly what they profess to hate Christians doing to them - and I seek to bring all of them down who do it in order to end the hypocrisy and double-standard.
Well, even as a Satanist, you at least have a place. As a High Magician, who studies the Kabballah, mostly, I am a practitioner of magick, and this makes me too Pagan for the Christians, they don't get it, which is fine, I expected that. I had a very supportive Order for a while, and then I moved, and what I didn't expect is for the Pagan community where I live to treat me like a pariah, because I was too Christian. I was actually told, and I quote "You don't belong here, this place is for real Pagans, You're too Christian". The Pagan can be just as intolerant as the Christian.
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Permalink Reply by PaganKsMom on
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Intolerance in any and all forms is a shame. I am a young Pagan woman living in Kansas. I have been fired from jobs, been spit at and so much more since being openly Pagan. My 4 year old's pre-k teacher called me for a parent teacher confrence because my daughter had taken her favorite book about Ancient Gods and Goddesses to school for show and tell. Apparently this children's book wasn't appropriate. Yet the teacher was reading a book about the life of Jesus that another student had brought for show and tell, to the whole class. I had to fight for the right in the United States Army in Basic Training simply for the right to religious observation and for my dog tags to accurately represent my religion. (which btw the latter never occured)
Now, I have to admit that this upsets me and yes, at times makes me angry. I could get angry and show it, and cause a commotion. But if I want people to actually learn that I am not "evil" I must teach them by my actions, not my anger. It is a hard path to walk. But anyone who takes up a pagan or "alternative" (I can't stand that term) path, must understand the possible hardships that my be endured. Do not misunderstand me though. I in no way condone violence or vandalism perpetrated by people of any religion against another. IT IS WRONG. Plain and simple. It saddens me to see the hatred that dwells in so many peoples hearts. And just as Torey posted in an earlier comment, it is sad to see the intollerance INSIDE the Pagan community against those of like minded paths. As I like to say... a fundie, is a fundie, is a fundie, no matter the religious affiliation. And hate is just that, hate. No matter how you justify it. Before you decide against a person for whatever reason take the time to get to know them or at least to understand their beliefs. Knowledge is power, and that power can set you free from the hatred that pollutes our world on an every day basis.
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Permalink Reply by Blacksunshine on
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Very interesting and great thread. Some of the posts I have read are sad, disturbing, and just wrong if you ask me.
I come from Utah. Most people that think Utah, think LDS Mormon Conservative and completely right wing. Now dont get me wrong it is. But I think that because of the judgement put upon them in their day, it has actually opened ut up to a freedom of religion, that you wouldn't expect. Now dont get me wrong, I dont think that most would agree with me...but to me, at times its the ones that feel judged that have at times put it upon themselves to be judged.
Some of the intollerance that comes from the midwest especially is hard to hear. I cant imagine living in a place where I felt so abused in my ways of thinking and beliefs, and my heart goes out to you!!
Blessesd be
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Permalink Reply by Gary Dupuis on
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I personally have nothing against satanists and I find it wrong that even pagans can be so closeminded when it comes to your path. I had a friend that was a satanist and he was one the most genuine people I have ever met. Peace and Love to you, hang in there...
Torey said:As a Satanist, I have to say that I am disappointed with the intolerance that I have found AMONGST PAGANS towards their own kindred.
I can't even number the amount of times that I have heard WICCANS say things like "evil Satanists" and "we protect Christians against evil Satanists" or "if I met Satan, I'd smite him in the face".
Some Pagans do exactly what they profess to hate Christians doing to them - and I seek to bring all of them down who do it in order to end the hypocrisy and double-standard.
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Permalink Reply by Torey on
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Perhaps you need to educate yourself on the differences between transcendent and immanent deity - the difference between the deity or concept of the divine in Paganism and Christianity. Theistic Satanists believe that deity is in everything - and, yes, that means Satan.
No deity is 'original'. Having a 'pre-Christian' deity doesn't make anyone 'Pagan' or more legitimate than those who work with the Christian pantheon. If anyone excludes the Christian pantheon from 'the list of valid and legitimate deities' then one needs to re-examine his understanding of world mythology - and realize that every deity in every culture has been cataloged before under a different name.
'Pagan' does not = 'not Christian'.
Morgan said:Who in their right mind calls themselves Wiccan or Pagan and believes in the christian god or satan?
Torey said:As a Satanist, I have to say that I am disappointed with the intolerance that I have found AMONGST PAGANS towards their own kindred.
I can't even number the amount of times that I have heard WICCANS say things like "evil Satanists" and "we protect Christians against evil Satanists" or "if I met Satan, I'd smite him in the face".
Some Pagans do exactly what they profess to hate Christians doing to them - and I seek to bring all of them down who do it in order to end the hypocrisy and double-standard.
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Thank you, Gary - that means a lot to me:) Thanks to everyone who is supportive. Btw I am a Theistic Satanist - not LaVeyan, although I consider myself Concordant in that I combine aspects from both. Blessings...
Also I didn't mean to be combative - just that it irritates me how misinformation breeds intolerance.
Gary Dupuis said:I personally have nothing against satanists and I find it wrong that even pagans can be so closeminded when it comes to your path. I had a friend that was a satanist and he was one the most genuine people I have ever met. Peace and Love to you, hang in there...
Torey said:As a Satanist, I have to say that I am disappointed with the intolerance that I have found AMONGST PAGANS towards their own kindred.
I can't even number the amount of times that I have heard WICCANS say things like "evil Satanists" and "we protect Christians against evil Satanists" or "if I met Satan, I'd smite him in the face".
Some Pagans do exactly what they profess to hate Christians doing to them - and I seek to bring all of them down who do it in order to end the hypocrisy and double-standard.
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In general,
Whether you are Satanists, Buddhist, Wiccans etc. regarding your worries in the short term about being outraged by Non Pagans I don't know, but in the long run I definitely believe in what I explained above, that I wrote in my previous replies.
Shortly: We need to create a new strength among us and embrace a united vision, even allowing distances and varieties of cults among the different paths!
If the NeoPagans will fail doing that, then we will remain in this limbo, like in a vicious loop!! ....
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DragonKnight and ALL other souls bothered by Intolerance ( in this case Christian Intolerance ... ),
Rather than being "horrified", I think its a good move to go in the churches, inside the "tissue" of christianity to let these people be acquainted with your Shaman knowledge. It is a kind of new "evangelization", that NeoPagans like you need to do, for the benefit of our whole movement. This does not imply that you need to become Christian at ALL, rather that you will be there like an "observer" and deliver your message to your friends, warming them up and hopefully educating them to a different perspective...
Among other proofs that confirmed historically the VARIOUS ( meaning from different sources ) Pagan origins of Christianism, FROM WIKIPEDIA : "...Whereas formerly Gnosticism was considered mostly a corruption of Christianity, it now seems clear that traces of Gnostic systems can be discerned some centuries before the Christian Era..."
Which means that Gnosticism preceded and contributed big time to create the beginning of Christianism!
Tell them that the first Christian communities in the Middle East, historically proven, were the Gnostic ones, that share beliefs including believing "that humans are divine souls trapped in a material world...", which implies the concept of meditations, transmigration of the souls, which is really close to the New Age perspective. Just focus on that !!!
BUT DO NOT FIGHT IF THEY REJECT YOUR IDEAS AT FIRST !! ... we need to be tolerant, giving them time to reflect and .. acting relaxed as a Harvard professor can be!!
But if you are in the presence of a person that you feel is being really closed minded or worst in bad faith, after a decent attempt, just leave and skip him...
IN ORDER NOT TO GET IN AN IMMEDIATE FIGHT OR ARGUMENT, IT IS OF MAJOR IMPORTANCE, AT THE BEGINNING OF YOUR CONVERSATION, TO SAY THAT THERE IS NO NEED FOR THEM TO LEAVE THEIR OWN RELIGION, BUT JUST TO IMPROVE THEIR VISION AND GAIN THE RIGHT PERSPECTIVE!!!
So, finally, we DON'T need to see other Non Pagan people as enemies or as evil entities by default, but if we are skilled, well prepared and brave enough, little by little, without being too confrontational, we can sensitize them to our superior vision!! ...
... LASTLY, as a comfort for our hopes and to strengthen our determination, we need to realize that no matter what amount of time will pass from today on, the future is bright for NeoPaganism!!!
DragonKnight said:I live in a small town where everyone says they are Christians, there are more churches here than there are stores. I found it odd that when I moved here that I was called a Witch, Satanist and Witchdoctor because I am Shaman. Instead of asking me what my path was these folks all asked their preacher who told them I was Evil and Practiced an Abomination for a religion.
Some months passed by where I had the chance to meet this man whom had judged me so harshly and converse with him on religion, Christianity of course, where he found me extremely knowledgeable in the Bible and asked that I join his Church. I simply looked at him and replied “I’m sorry… I’m Shaman, and it is considered blasphemy for me to enter your church under false pretences that I am a Christian when I am not. I just thought you’d like to get to know the person you condemned on the behalf of others so as to not lose your congregation and the passing for dollars plate in your building… and by the way… a church is defined in the Bible as anywhere two or more people gather to discuss the word of God… it could be an out house and as far as that goes you describe God as a man… the Bible does not give God a description, just that to hear God would deafen one, and to see God would blind one as well”. These people here are almost to a person drug addicts and alcoholics, and as far as their preacher goes… I could take over his congregation tomorrow if I thought it necessary to do such an evil thing as to “pretend to be Christian” as sooo many of these folk do around here. I can imagine that everyone knows a family member or close family tied individual who goes to church only so others can see that they are Christian, and not to follow or practice a religion. It’s all in the deception and I have heard the most horrible of parents and drunken bums pray out to God and Jesus… this scares the ever loving life out of me, and lately to hear these people ask me if I voted for the “Nigger” scares me even more. He was a life long attendant of a Christian Church and I can not imagine such hatred. I just tell them “No… I did vote for Obama, but I was for Hillary at first, even a black man that is accused of being a Muslim terrorist is better than a white man who claims to be a Christian and kill Muslims in the name of God and Jesus… don’t you think?” They usually shut up and leave me alone after I start pointing out their many visible Christian sins written on their shirts or what they allowed to spit from their heathen guttural linguistic skills that they backwardly aspire to become. ~DK~
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I repeat,
no matter how obtuse and nasty are the Non Pagans surrounding us, we can show, without arrogance but gently and firmly, that the roots of Christianity are Pagans!... then its time to rediscover our heritage!! We need to speak to people from this perspective...
WE NEED TO IGNORE ALL THE REST!!!
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Phaedre's story confirms that during the ages the contemporary Christianism lost his roots from the previous Gnostic & Magickal Christianism, among other models that created this religion.
Then I bet that today Christians need .... us for their own magick!!
Phaedre said:I emerged out of the broom closet about 8 years ago, deciding that I was no longer going to hide my spiritual life from those around me. I started wearing my pentacle outside my shirt, insead of tucked inside where no one could see it. yes, I got some strange looks and people with children making wide circles around me in the grocery store. But I also made some new friends. People that I'd known for years who didn't know I was pagan.I've never looked back. I don't defiend my faith, unless confronted about it, and i dona't protheletize. (I didn't spell that right) But I regularly do magickal workings for some of those christians that I know...And my car even has obviously pagan stickers all over the back of it. yes, I live in Nashville..the buckle of the Bible Belt. But I found freedom in proclaiming myself and no longer hiding. It has even given me the opportunity to have open discussions with people who can't believe I'm a witch, because I'm too nice! LOL
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Permalink Reply by Vickie on
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I am angered by any intoleranc. I am not able to comprehend those who are intolerant people. Being that I am the mother of one gay son, a drug addict, and a very socially punished son, I have not tolerance for intolerance.
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Permalink Reply by Lady Bronwyn on
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Donna:
Uttering a threat against the President or President-elect is a federal offense and you should contact the Secret Service. Here is the URL: http://www.secretservice.gov/ and follow the link to contact them. You might take a picture of that sign and attach it to your e-mail to the Secret Service, if you wish.
I am so sorry to hear that you were burned out in Alabama.
I don't know where you live, but what you have reported is outrageous!
Donna said:Paolo, I live in an area of the world where Christians have almost complete control over the politics and the law. The Christians where I live seem to have come to a consensus that Barack Obama is the "Anti-Christ" and many of them have openly called for his assassination. One prominent business man here even has a sign in front of his establishment that reads, "Barack Obama, We have a dream for you- Lee Harvey Oswald". In this area people have had their children seized by Child Protective Services when someone has called them and reported that the parent was practicing witchcraft. We are not allowed to buy alcohol on Sunday or even order a glass of wine in a restaurant. My grandson was punished by his third grade teacher for not saying "the blessing" before lunch in "Jesus's name". Now that he's in high school, there is discussion in class during which other students assert that a person cannot be moral if they aren't Christian and the teacher was very critical of my grandson's disagreement with that statement. My home was burned in Alabama because I had symbols on the garden door from my bedroom and crystals on the front porch all of which were interpreted that I was practicing Satanism. These people hardly seem to be on a path to God but rather to be blocking that path. Do you have any comments on this and what is your concept of this idea of an "Anti-Christ" and that President Elect Obama has been called that?
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