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The Muslim World needs to clarify itself!!
Hello,
A Muslim man, in San Petersburg ( Russia ), killed a daughter just cause she was wearing a miniskirt, which is probably seen as scandalous for the Koranic law, he actually hired three other Muslims to murder the young girl!
Unfortunately this is not an isolated case but one of the many cases of intolerance and madness against women ( and more... ) from Muslim believers.
This didn't happen in the middle of somewhere like an Arabic village but in one of the most important city of Russia...
Certainly it's not the first time that we heard about similar atrocities and I personally frankly got enough...
I always had hard time in believing that this kind of acts are belonging to a genuine doctrine of the Koran or an interpretation of it...
I know that in the world there are "good" Muslims, but today there are too many horrifying and unacceptable acts made by them in the name of this religion, that I start almost to believe that the vast majority of them share a real brutal belief... I would like to know your opinion at this regard and overall if you think that it would be nice if President Obama, who strives for a "reconciliation" of USA with the Islamic World, will ask the most influential spiritual leaders of Islam to clarify once and for all if the religion of Mohammed is really a violent intolerant credo as it seems unfortunately often... and if these kinds of acts, which are really extreme and foolish, made always in the name of Allah, are legitimated or not by the Koran and by the contemporary spiritual leaders!!... So that finally we will be more aware of the real nature of Islam, because without a CLEAR explanation, a black shadow will be always surrounding them and their religion...
A Muslim man, in San Petersburg ( Russia ), killed a daughter just cause she was wearing a miniskirt, which is probably seen as scandalous for the Koranic law, he actually hired three other Muslims to murder the young girl!
Unfortunately this is not an isolated case but one of the many cases of intolerance and madness against women ( and more... ) from Muslim believers.
This didn't happen in the middle of somewhere like an Arabic village but in one of the most important city of Russia...
Certainly it's not the first time that we heard about similar atrocities and I personally frankly got enough...
I always had hard time in believing that this kind of acts are belonging to a genuine doctrine of the Koran or an interpretation of it...
I know that in the world there are "good" Muslims, but today there are too many horrifying and unacceptable acts made by them in the name of this religion, that I start almost to believe that the vast majority of them share a real brutal belief... I would like to know your opinion at this regard and overall if you think that it would be nice if President Obama, who strives for a "reconciliation" of USA with the Islamic World, will ask the most influential spiritual leaders of Islam to clarify once and for all if the religion of Mohammed is really a violent intolerant credo as it seems unfortunately often... and if these kinds of acts, which are really extreme and foolish, made always in the name of Allah, are legitimated or not by the Koran and by the contemporary spiritual leaders!!... So that finally we will be more aware of the real nature of Islam, because without a CLEAR explanation, a black shadow will be always surrounding them and their religion...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Founder on
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I like to add that I didn't hear any comments from the Spiritual Leaders of the Islamic countries on this issue... maybe somebody did, but unfortunately they didn't arrived to my open ears...
in my country then we said that who is silent is like to agree....
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Permalink Reply by Rebecca (Community Moderator) on
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Understanding there is some action against oppression of these Islamic women, they still need more awareness in the world to provide support and further strength. Yakin Erturk and Tahira Abdullah are two women standing tall among all in that region.
However the larger issue being discussed here is with regard to having the American President as for clarification from the Islamic nations to see where they stand and put it on clear record with regard to this and other similar, brutal versions of Islamic justice. To use a popular term, to ask for 'transparency' within these nations about their true perspective and following that, to watch their actions to see if they coincide with the words and then seek accountability. This is another interesting article .... http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/03/world/worldwatch/entry49157...
Side note: I reviewed the first article you posted but it doesn't discuss that the Caucauses region condemns the crimes. Here's the first article, copied from the link:
April 13, 2009 12:14am
AN Azeri immigrant in Russia's northern city of Saint Petersburg has been charged with hiring hit men to kill his 21-year-old daughter for wearing a mini-skirt.
The man's arrest follows the detention last week of two other citizens of Azerbaijan, a majority Muslim state in the Caucasus, who confessed to murdering the girl, a university medical student.
“They admitted to being paid 100,000 rubles ($4140) by the girl's father. They said he wanted to punish his daughter for flouting national traditions and wearing a mini-skirt,” a police source told said today.
The girl was abducted on the street in Russia's second city on March 8, taken to the outskirts of Saint Petersburg and then shot twice in the head, the source said.
Russia has experienced a revival of conservative religious tradition since the fall of the Soviet Union both within its Russian Orthodox and large Muslim communities.
The Saint Petersburg Mosque – the largest and northernmost in Europe when it was built in 1913 – now counts mostly migrants from ex-Soviet Azerbaijan among its worshippers.
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Hi Donna - If you go back to page one of this discussion, I posted some news links about this story which don't tell us everything about the current status, but what I can tell you is that the young girl was murdered in Russia where she was attending a University. I believe, from the reports, that the father and at least 2 of the killers have been arrested for the crime.
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Since I was called an Idiot by her, I paste below an hyperlink to a video from Youtube, to shut the mouth of Jacyntha with a proof of an orrifying crime commited by Muslims in Pakistan, which is an Islamic country! And what is the best is that the crime was legitimated by the Pakistan authorithy!... this is just one out of the many that everyday are committed in the name of Allah! ...
here's the hyperlink: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-1TKSmcmfA
I still wait for an action from United Nations or US to speak in a public summit with the Muslim leaders ( I mean ALL of them ) to clarify what REALLY is and what contemporary Islam wants...
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I can continue now with another series of "beautiful" examples from current day of how good is the behavior of Islamic intolerance... let's see what our friend jacyntha has to say!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rgSH0h45Eo&feature=PlayList&...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGaXxtvf2bM&feature=PlayList&...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG_9QHlFn6Q&feature=PlayList&...
It seems really evident from those reports that there is an alarming consensus of local people and local members of the parliament... which again will bring us to the same question: what is really Islam? ... it surely became in my opinion something to be aware of as a source of major danger for everybody that believes in liberty and justice and dignity!
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Look at this now, happening presently/ 2007 in Teheran... this is in my opinion another crime against freedom... that's how you can be free today in Iran!... to be meditated by all...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgXgpngHf60&feature=PlayList&;...
I can go on and on with other videos....
let me hear now some other folks to defend the Nazi-Gestapo oriented Islam! C'mon... I'm here waiting for a new proud defender of Islam...
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Permalink Reply by Ray on
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Paolo---I've been following this thread for quite some time now. All very interesting and colorful debate. I've noticed, though, that you have a tendency in your posts to characterize all of Islam as some monolithic cultural and religious "other", a single entity, that, in your mind, is responsible for horrific crimes against humanity. It is more academically correct to speak of a plethora of Islams. The Muslim Mevlevi dervish of Turkey shares little similarity with the also Muslim Moro of the Philippines in their world view, except perhaps adherence to the Five Pillars. Daily Islamic religious life in Bali is very different from daily Islamic religious life in say, the holy city of Qum in Iran. Not to mention the wide division between Sunni and Shi'a... Even within the Shi'a (as you probably know, having lived in Iran) there are many different "sects, such as the Twelvers. Folk Islam. Rural Islam. City Islam. Islam as practiced in villages...
My point here is that it as at best simplistic and intellectually dishonest, and, at worst, downright dangerous to interpret a vast variety of phenomena as a solitary phenomenon (I think this goes for the magical sphere, too, by the way). Once we have mis-conceptualized in this way, it is quite simple to attribute the characteristics of one or a few phenomena to the entire set of phenomena. In this case, the equation goes something like this: Muslim St. Petersburg Father's Crimes (plus or minus the anecdotal youtube videos you posted) = All Islam's attempts to limit life and liberty. This mis-conceptualization or mental "leap" is one of the most powerful "pressure points" in the arsenal of the professional propagandist (who do you think might have been the source of those videos, by the way?).
I do not condone coercion, humiliation, or violence against other people for any reason. I am in no way attempting to mitigate the severity of the crimes that you have cited. Consider, though, that that they are indeed just that, crimes, albeit horrific crimes. As Jacintha very successfully argued, they represent patriarchal oppression against women. They also represent, I would argue, not crimes against humanity perpetrated in the name of the mythical construct of a unitary Islam, but the reaction of traditional societies when faced with threatening incursions of modernity.
I urge you to stop using your forum to promulgate the us vs. them mentality so central to those who would instigate a "glorious" new crusade, and to reframe your arguments a bit more analytically.
Best regards,
Ray
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Here we are again!
I invite you to watch the big issue instead of discussing secondary issues or worst to polemize on my personal vision, when we are in front of a so blatant threat!!!
I TOTALLY DISAGREE with your superficial analysis Sir!
It is cause thinkers like you didn't take action against the threat of the rising Christianism , at that time, that ancient Paganism failed miserably, showing weakness against the powerful actions and rising of early Christian followers "soldiers" alike. Just like is happenning this days with Islam.... meditate ... meditate...
Your vision of contemporary Islam is absurd, vague, incomplete, naive and blind, in complete contradictions of what is really happening.
Islam, whether fragmented in many sub cults, IS STILL just one big entity that shares the same credo. A credo that expresses itself through annihilation and brutal supression of freedom!
My view expressed in my postings has nothin' to do with a persecution against women, this is just one of the many consquences of the Islamic credo and obtuse dogmas!
As an another example they consider dogs evil, just cause one of them seemed to bite Mohammed!!
This is a delirious religion!
Look deep at their integralism, at the root of their violent credo: that's the philosophy and the threat!! This is the point the needs to be addressed, not the many factions or the so called extremists, when instead its the MAIN RELIGION OF ISLAM TO SHARE THIS EXTREME VIEW OF LIFE!! This is why I consider Islam, as it is today, a serious threat that needs to be addressed and not to be just discussed with the superficiality you are showin'!
So its naive to think just about in the terms of a woman persecution...
Islam, as it is today, took a u turn from the sublime Sufi visions of the early stages to become a violent credo!!
Furthermore even the "good" Muslims, unless they rebel to their guides, are in my humble opinion responsible of sharing this crazy "Holy war" that IS in ACTION Now, under the eyes of a Western World which is just sleepin', giving the world to the hands of this brutal and ungry of power religion!!
Then how I can sympathize with your vision sir?
It is my duty as a proud Pagan to protect my freedom. What does this imply?
Its simple: first to unmask Islam through a political action from the US and the rest of the non-Islamic world. They need to tell us what means today Islam and what is this Holy war?... so that we can divide the "good" Islam from the other.
If this will fail, probably we need to wait to see the day when discussion like this one will be banished, cause the flags of Mohammed will control the world...
Other options brother?... you figure out. Certainly not turning the other cheek!
But for what I remember freedom has always a price to pay! ...please look further in past history!....
Now call me fascist, intolerant, Pagan-crusader or whethever you like better... I do not care, I just think that who follows your vision is responsible of a probable obscure fate for future generations.
11 of September just started to show the brutal face of the Holy War against the Western civilization which is underway today.
And please do not tell me that Al Qaeda is something alien to the vision of the leaders of Islam, this will be another mistake... another of the many fatal ones!!
Paganism will never accomplish its return if not united and resoluted against obscurantism and tyranny!!
Another option is to wait in the miracoulous power of Coca-Cola, Mc Donalds and internet... will they destroy and change Islam as they did in Russia with comunism?... let's pray then!!!!
Lastly an invitation Ray to avoid with me another pathetic Jacyntha case...
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Donna,
I call these religions with benevolent irony the three sisters, in order of historical appearance: Judaism, Christianity & Islam. Are so called revealed religions cause are supposedly revealed from an alien spiritual entity to a prophet...
All of them share an alarming amount of blind despotic fundamentalism... by far the most violent is Islam, that's why I consider this one the most dangerous one.
Obviously that doesn't mean that I don't know the real nature of the other two ones...
Christianism & Islam betrayed the original "message of love" that was in their origin, to pursue another goal totally alien from this original message.
I can see the bones of Christ and Mohammed shaking in their glorious burial...
Judaism is just for elected people, then since I'm not one of them I better shut up my "dirty" mouth!
Getting back to Islam, differently from Christianism, their fundamentalism and intolerance reached a point of violent suppression of freedom.
Added to their aggressive and unfortunately successful wide-spread expansion in the world, Islam has become the most threatening religion in the world today!
Everybody who cares for the freedom of the Earth needs to realize the challenge and the EXTREME DANGER within!!
I had the pleasure to date an Iranian princess that when Khomeini took power, she had her possessions confiscated and many friends decapitated, just cause they were friends of the Shah that was kicked out. These Mullahs are using the same systems of the Christian Medieval Inquisition, but in the world of 2000!!
I can assure you that for my personal experience in their countries the bad seeds of Islamic Fundamentalism are spread out to the majority of people!
I don't like to think of Islamic people as a bunch of idiots that cannot choose their leaders!! This means overall that these seeds of fundamentalism plus an old atavic rebellion against Western countries created a general sentiment of hate against our civilization. Obviously which country can better personify the "great Satan" better than the US?...
Then if you look at this perspective 9/11 is a "natural" consequence of this delirious religion of martyrs!
Now, with the permission of Ray and Jacyntha and co. I will like to suggest in order to hopefully prevent not just another 11 September, but a humiliating end of western civilzation, to start immediately a request to the Obama administration for an international symposium that needs to clarify the most important points regarding the nature of this fundamentalism. Regarding the excommunication of Al Qaeda and all the Islamic fundamentalists activists, plus the immediate consignment to justice of Bin laden & co. Furthermore the Islamic Leaders need to banish the Holy war against Western countries and condemn this concept as alien from the Islamic Religion. Furthermore the leaders need to assure freedom of cults or other religions in the Islamic countries. Furthermore the role of women in their Islamic society needs to be completely reinstated.
I sincerely doubt that they will apply to this. If this will fail, in my opinion, the falling of the Western civilization is occurring little by little...
Now I stop for a moment... waiting for some other suggestions...
obviously nobody needs to try to say that I'm an enemy of Islam or Christianity since I love Sufism which originates Islam and I was born and raised Christian! But unfortunately the good people of those religions are now overcomed by a big shadow of blind intolerant fundamentalism...
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Paolo, you might want to add some music to your posts... It is much easier to get people to march in lock-step when there are a lot of bugles and drums, because the noise tends to drown out critical thought.
I would suggest, too, since you are in Rome, home to some of the world's greatest universities, that you maybe take a class or two in comparative religion or perhaps even anthropology and learn the difference between a narrow, inconsistent political diatribe and well-formed argument based on evidence and reason. I can recommend a professor for you there, if you like. -
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