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Intolerance against Paganism and in general ...
After watching the negative reaction of somebody to the rising of Paganism with the new cults and religions, like Wicca, Goth and Neopaganism, I want to know your opinion about it. And furthermore to discuss world Intolerance in general also ....
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rowan Redthorn on
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Oh you poor girl :( I know how you feel. Literally. People are just scared of what they dont know & thats why they act the way they do. But still, that didnt make it right to do that to you. When I was in high school, (i always carried some books & on that day it was one of my wicca books) & this guy took it from me & pointed at me 7 called me a "demon summoning Wh**e." & they made fun of me for days. calling me "satan worshipper" & "burn the witch" or "My ancestors burned yours" People can be really cruel, even if you are a good person, but for that, there will always be good people who support & accept you. It happens all the time, no matter where you move. But since im moving, I dont really worry too much about it, its just sad how others just cant accept things. Im sorry about it all :( Blessed Be
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Permalink Reply by Lady Bronwyn on
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Greetings, Jade. I am sorry to hear that you went through that! I do have a question: Do you have Pagan bumperstickers on your car? The reason I ask is if the perps were after YOU personally, because of tatoos and piercings, it means you probably know them, whereas if they targeted your vehicle because of bumperstickers, they may not know you at all. I am thinking of your personal safety with my questions.
BB,
Lady B
Jade said:Tonight i go out to smoke a cigarette and discover that my car has been egged and written on it was the word "Witch"! Gee, i wonder why I was targeted???? I am really disapointed. I moved to a small town six months ago. I have good friends here now but still notice people giving me dirty looks because of my piercings and visable pagan tattoos. But i expected that. not all people are judgemental but some still are and i knew i had to deal with that!! But for somebody to come to my house and egg my car and write witch on it was not something i expected. This has happened to me before- in my old town, but it was my house and it was spray painted. thankfully that didnt happen this time- thank to goddess for small favors, right? I cant really be mad right now because i am too shocked, but im sure i will be pissed tommorrow when i have to clean that off. Luckly the people didn't know what they were doing and used washable markers- another small favor. *sigh* idk- im disapointed in people right now. I feel like i am a nice person, i listen and respect other peoples religion and dont preach my own. i dont know how people can be so mean and judgemental. it is really upsetting. A little part of me died while discovering my car covered in egg goo. The part that had hope for man-kind accepting pagans fully one day. I know this was probably only one or two people who made a bad discision, but i cant help but feel that way. I want to cry- but not for me or my car, but for pagans in general who go through this kind of thing. The fact that this still happens is so...... idk...... disapointing. I know compared to the witch burnings and jew pursecutions this is nothing- but it kills a part of you just the same.
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Permalink Reply by MyztikalWolf on
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LOL,Jade,I have many visits from Jahovas Witness to.Usually we will invite them in...& as soon as they ask us if we believe in God,or Jesus,usually will respond with God & Goddess,we also make it clear we do believe that they exist/may have existed,than they will ask us to pray with them,we say cool,than when they ask what our religion is,we tell them Wiccan,referring to ourselves as Witches....Man,they make an extremely quick exit,LOL,its not like we just attempted to turn them into a toad! Makes me wonder what they atre so afraid of,If they have so much faith in thier Gods protection...But we have no quarrels with going to a service once in a while just to hear thier thoughts on "being devoted,followers,but I can go to a club,& see at least 3-4 ppl from that congragation,Partying,& having a good time!!!
Jade said:thank you so much panthera sky- you said EXACTLY what i have been thinking. i notice all the time, in Walmart, Hastings,etc, clothes racks and sections full of clothing, jewelry, hats, coffee mugs with verses from the bible and wonder- Why is thier not a wiccan section, or buddist, or muslium or jewish??? why only christian?! this makes no sence. people think that there is a freedom of religion in this country, but thier wrong. it is not equal at all! my family is the same way as yours with the exception of my husband. he is also wiccan and supports me fully. but my family and friends are all christian that tell me all about thier Christmas- but never ask what Yule is. it is very frustrating sometimes. But there is hope. i dont know if you have noticed lately, but it is getting better. more and more people and places are accepting us. and while its not like it should be- it is alot better than it was a couple hundred years ago. we just have to do our best to wear our pentacles proudly and explain honeslty to the people who are willing to ask questions.
Goddess Bless
Jade
Panthera Sky said:I have a respect for all people of all faiths. However, it really unnerves me when people, usually Christians or Jehovah's witnesses, show up at my door shoving THEIR beliefs in my face fully expecting me to "see it their way". And what is worse is that it is absolutely tolerated and accepted throughout the small podoke community in which I live. I think they have things backwards when it comes to pagans, witches, satanists, etc... the "mainstream religions" are the ones who, to me, seem to be the great cults, attempting to brainwash all those who dont see things as they do and drag them into their highly organized worshipping. If I were to go door to door in my community and hand out flyers with a pentagram or triple moon on front asking others if they have "heard the word of the Lord...and Lady today" my family would be ran out of town if not worse! YET they believe WE are the ones who are bad and evil and cause unjust harm! To those people, it seems as if religion has no true value or meaning other than a way to be accepted by society as a whole. Just look at how commercialized Christianity is...I've seen "WWJD" on everything from bracelets to Tshirts to coffee mugs, and then there's televized christian worshipping! My family, including my husband, are self-proclaimed Christians. None of them ever attend church, not many pray to my knowledge, all of them are guilty of some "sin", BUT yet they cringe when I even mention being a Wiccan or that I practice Witchcraft. Not one of them ask anything about my beliefs or why I believe what I believe or what it means to me. They are scared of knowledge and change beyond what they already know to be... I am Taboo among my own family as we (neopagans) are among society. That is why there is a majority of our nation is in an uproar about Barack Obama becoming our next president. He is Taboo and over the next few years I forsee less fear and more change with more knowledge of the unknown and misunderstood.
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Permalink Reply by AJSwicca on
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Yes, and they single handedly picked the books in the bible..........added some, took a bunch out...just like an editor, except they were written by so many different people that it is quit the work of the catholics in their state of terror to regain control of the people through fear as they were.6%3ATopic%3A16770&page=3#2453436Comment24745">
The story of this old symbol its very long, but in order to put it in a historical timeline, from what we know and I know, the first historical proven accounts of a Pentagram ( the pentacle having a five-pointed star inscribed on it ) belong to the Pythagorean mystics who worshipped the pentacle or pentagram. In fact the word pentagram comes from the Greek: "pente" meaning 5 (as in Pentagon). However, before Pythagoras, it seems that the Pentagram apparently originated as the symbol of a Goddess Kore, which is symbolized by the pentagram, and was worshiped within the Coptic Gnostic Christian religion in Alexandria, Egypt, during the 4th century CE. A festival called Koreion was held yearly on January 6. This was adopted by the Christian church as Feast of Epiphany and still celebrated as Jesus' birthday in Armenian churches and in orthodox churches in Greece. During Christianity: The five points of the pentagram have been interpreted as representing the five wounds of Christ. The Roman Emperor Constantine used the pentagram in his seal and amulet. It has been referred to as the Star of Bethlehem It was used to symbolize the star which allegedly led three Zoroastrian astrologers to the baby Jesus; it was called the Three Kings' star. The English warrior Sir Gawain, a nephew of King Arthur, adopted the pentagram as his personal symbol and placed it on his shield. It has been widely used by past Christians as a protective amulet. During persecutions when the Christian church burned alive thousands of innocent people, the meaning of the pentagram changed. It began, from a church perspective, to symbolize a goat's head or the devil in the form of Baphomet. "The folk-symbol of security - for the first time in history - was equated with evil and was called the Witch's Foot." So that SEEMS EVIDENT that the Roman church used these symbols not only to demonize Paganism, but also to ERASE, AMONG OTHERS, EVIDENCE OF THE REAL ROOTS OF CHRISTIANITY!!!! WHY? The struggle to retain power and to find an easy system to control people by the Church is evident, Pagans or not!! Making them ignorant and submiss to their power and needs. Using a deviant image of Christ and Christianism!! This way they had really an easy control over people, telling also fairy tales about God and Christ and how to achieve an easy"paradise" through their services. It is evident WHY they ( Roman Church or Vatican ) manipulated historical facts and evidence to achieve this goal!........ elementary Watson !!!
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Permalink Reply by Eternity on
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To begin with I would like to say, Spirituality is perceived differently by each individual. What may bring one peace within may not effect others in the same manner. I have found that being close to the earth, animals and plants has given me a better understanding of the circle of life, which has also given me a sense of where I fit in and belong.This is very important for anyone whom follows a spiritual path, People who do not have this understanding tend to be off balance, have insecurities and spend much of their lives searching for that in which they are oblivious to.
I believe there will be those that will linger in the shadows of negativity never step into the light and open their eyes because lets just face it here, We understand that particular individuals will stamp and shake sticks at us, threaten to burn us, shun us, call us names, and always pre-judge us for our choice in religion or spiritual path. At this point in evolution we can not escape it.
When something which was intended to be a beautiful experience gets bashed so hard without care for the feelings of all others it is hard to respect their choices, which is where the politics of things begin, Intolerance is not just physical the endurance of it is mental and for some unbearable. Which is why there are so many willing to debate such discussions from such a strong emotional stance. In turn is why I think this is a topic of very important value and can not be taken lightly in no aspect, form or fashion.
For everyone to be able to accept all others for what they choose to follow, believe and practice , would be an enormous feat in evolution, Unfortunately not all are able to achieve such enlightenment at this point in the history of humanity. How can we help? Well first of all it is never good to try and impose ones believes on others, However one can guide people and assist them in finding their way themselves through patents, understanding, suggestion and perhaps good advice.
Do not get me wrong I am not against any religion, although I think alot if not the majority of certain practices are in their religion for protection, status in the community, fear, force or an easy way out of their actions, choices instead of wanting spiritual closeness to The Creator. As far as I am concerned peace within, connection to mother earth, understanding and accepting responsibility for my actions and choices, respecting all creatures, living with my eyes open and my voice heard and doing all that I can to help others, human, animal and plants is far more real to me than being so arrogant as to think a few mere words can cleanse my spirit. Keep in mind this is only my opinion.
Much like Donna said as far as tolerance I too believe it will change in each area, depending on majorities. As far as Barak being Anti-Christian this is one people I just do not see the logic in.
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Permalink Reply by Lady Lunar Whisper on
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Ignorance is Alive and Well. Fear is what makes them talk as they do. I'll never forget Marilyn Manson playing in Utah ( I think ) and they wanted him to read from the Bible. Big mistake, as he's well versed ( No punn intended ). He agreed and said " The Bible IS scarrier than my lyrics, but that's what you want, you got it ". ( words to that affect. They are sadly " Sheep " and need to be told when, and where they must do whatever. They are missing life. They don't dare ask the " why ". This is their Dogma and Wicca tries to escape that, sometimes it doesn't work that way. I remember as a student being taught that men are Altar Candy. I NEVER agreed to that, as in itself it's a Dogma. Almost a retaliation to Christianiaty. This will NEVER be in this Coven. Men are the other half. They ARE the balance. Sorry to ramble.
Bless Be )0(
lunarwhisper
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Permalink Reply by Founder on
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Reminding the concept:
I strongly believe that we need to clean our Pagan distorted image ( thanks to ignorance and politically directed propaganda against Paganism...), in order that we can achieve a new "virginity"!!
How?... simply digging in historical evidences and showing, among other striking and touching issues, the real way that all the religions were made from the old Pagan cults!!
This will give us a legitimate status and a new & fresh credibility, or better a SUPREMACY!!
Obviously a STRONG cohesion between us is needed, and a lot of cross referencing of info is involved and the whole process will probably take years!... but otherwise I don't see other solutions. Even if it seems that I don't care, I sympathize with the folks that got a lot of troubles from intolerance against Paganism, but to reach my goal I need to be straightforward and just pay attention to more historical-philosophical issues rather than everyday injustice.
Also if we pay too much attention to this kind of everyday gratuitous and obtuse ignorance it will take us in a perverted unending blind loop..!
Unfortunately it will be "a long way to Tipperary" but we will be successful!!!
ps. ...don't get me wrong, probably a lot of "blood" will be shed, along with a chorus of shattered barking dogs against the Neopagans, red in the face with rage!!! ...
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Well, for one....... Wicca/Paganism are NOT " Cults ". The Real cult is, Christianity itself, all full of Dogma, and
" Sheep Herding ". This, I'm sure will not be taken well by ANY Christian that may be in here, so to that, they should go to " Their Pages ", made JUST for Christians. Not saying ANYTHING here to enrage anyone, but facts are facts. Never know what one gets in Cyber Space, but curiosity seekers abound. They don't ask what they really want to know, nor embrace the concept one can be a " Free Thinker ". Witch, means wise, as does Strega. Supremacy ? I do not think one single witch would like to be considered supreme. In fact, the opposite applies. A witch teaches students, but also learns from them.... Unless they are on a " Power Trip ". Everyone brings " something to the table " of knowledge. HPS, HP are mere " titles " and yes to a degree to be taken seriously, but not to the point of feeding an ego.
Bless Be )0(
lunarwhisper
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Which Trad do you follow Lady Lunar Whisper?
I am an Alexandrian, and I concur with you that men are the other half of our coven. They are not props.
Lady Lunar Whisper said:Ignorance is Alive and Well. Fear is what makes them talk as they do. I'll never forget Marilyn Manson playing in Utah ( I think ) and they wanted him to read from the Bible. Big mistake, as he's well versed ( No punn intended ). He agreed and said " The Bible IS scarrier than my lyrics, but that's what you want, you got it ". ( words to that affect. They are sadly " Sheep " and need to be told when, and where they must do whatever. They are missing life. They don't dare ask the " why ". This is their Dogma and Wicca tries to escape that, sometimes it doesn't work that way. I remember as a student being taught that men are Altar Candy. I NEVER agreed to that, as in itself it's a Dogma. Almost a retaliation to Christianiaty. This will NEVER be in this Coven. Men are the other half. They ARE the balance. Sorry to ramble.
Bless Be )0(
lunarwhisper
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Lady Lunar Whisper,
I'm surprise that you interpret my thoughts here in a moralistic and non-Pagan way!!
Since many of you are probably not familiar with my vision I would like to say that the terms I am using, like in this case "cult", dont have any negative meaning, except that the intentions of non Pagans was to make it negative. We dont have to accept this "fake" detractive connotation. Guess who decided that meaning? Then I dont want to be a victim of this negative propaganda created in bad faith over the ages against Paganism.
I have to say that unfortunately thinking like Lunarwhisper are absolutely not in our best interest, but at the opposite they are ironically magnifying this equivocal interpretation. This needs to be changed through the proofs of evidences, reinstalling the true meaning. Perhaps if we want to cut this vicious loop we need to coin new names to describe old terms...
But the substance remains: we dont need to accept an obtuse and fake dictate from non-Pagan entities!!!!!
When I started Neopagan.com it was clear in my mind what to do in order to clean the deteriorated image of Paganism. In order to do that we need to be cohesive and to share, among our personal differences, a unified code of conduct. Especially we need to avoid what I call "intellectual fearful masturbations" interpretations like in your comments are power trip, ego trip...
The ego is obviously involved in everything in life on this plan of existence: its useless to say, as you did, witches need to teach or to be open to third parties and so on ...!!. Unfortunately the "bad karma" fear is an heritage of bad understood beliefs of Hinduism doctrines...
Furthermore other fake dilemmas like: Paganism needs or doesnt need a Messiah, or new rules...etc... WHO CARES, welcome to all of this if its beneficial!! The issue is: is Paganism sick? Then if there is a medicine that will make him feeling well, just take it!!!
Consequently the major problem is reestablish a liason with our ancient and noble roots of the tradition, which implies a refusal of everything that is not in tune with that. Among other things then, we need to refuse to accept the derrogatory connotation of these terms so that we wont become victims of the negative propaganda. For example, if I do enochian magic working with angelic energies, and I call myself a Magus and somebody starts laughing at this term, assuming I am a charlatan, I dont have to accept his thinking or to care at all. We know that in history there were good men and charlatans in society. We need to be adamant, strong and firm on our position showing that Paganism was the crib of civilisation so that accordingly it is seen and appropriately celebrated. We need always to remind, among others issues, to the new savants that Magic can add to science a touch of bliss and inspiration that it needs to move on to higher achievements.
Returning to Lady Lunar comment in detail:
You need and we need to have peace of mind with this game of the Ego: the Ego is there in us and will stay happily with us. Its alive, human and not good or bad by any means, Amen!
His multi faces are so many, that even when we masquerade ourself with humbleness the ego is at work!! In fact the Ego is related with us and CANNOT be escaped, but needs to be under the control-observation-supervision of our mind. IN fact we can say that the Ego is a part of our mind and body!!
Keeping distance from your analysis Lady Lunar, I suggest instead that we need to take action and to use and "celebrate" our incarnation and the Ego ( that's why we are on this earth..!), but we need to observe the whole mental process, like we are watching a movie, so that we will be involved but at the same time detached to a reasonable degree...
By "power trip", probably you referring to a meaning that is a sub product of a real vertical powerful ascent....
POWER is instead exactly what we need to achieve in this magical vertical path or vertical ascent. But power means a lot of things, so that we need to understand what this power exactly is and the right amount of power we need.
As we know, the whole universe is a source of power, because the Creator, or God the One, is just POWER in action!! Then if your imaginary strega or witch doesn't involve power its not a real strega neither a Pagan Magus, but probably a "chistianized" surrogate which relies on a submissive power!
Instead, the Pagan way means that through your own magical effort and your ego, you connect yourself with the source of power so that you don't rely anymore on external factor or third part entities like Jesus Christ or others....
Then we don't need at all to be ashamed or fearful to reach power, at the opposite this what the superior energies or Gods want and will deliver to us!!
You are talking about teaching, but you can teach if you are a professor at school, not if you are a a witch!! We don't need to teach, but just to direct power at will!
So that its preferable that no witch will teach, but instead experimenting with universal forces, following the ancient trustable traditions!!
Regarding the word Cult I reminding you of the general meaning: from Wikipedia "Cult typically refers to a cohesive social group devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding population considers to be outside the mainstream..."
So that Paganism did embed an arsenal of beliefs like many small religions that generally were called Cults. If we are, again, scared by this term, this is a consequence of blatant and obtuse negative non-Pagan propaganda.
I feel then that we can happily use this word without fear or negative meanings..!
Regarding supremacy, that only means that from a historical perspective the so called inspired religions are made from the previous ancient cults or religions models!!!
That implies, symbolically and practically, a doctrinal and historical supremacy, whether you like or not this name!!!
Personally I feel that if we will be persistent in this self destructive game among Pagans, we will never be successful and our lives will be always under the threat and at the mercy of our detractors!!!
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WOW, you appear to be VERY angry, so for that I feel bad for you. I have taught as well as learned from others. All you big words, amount to not much. I think I need to keep MY distance from the like of you, Sir. You took EVERYTHING I said and twisted it into what you wish to disect. I have far too much sadness to worry about what you think. Seems like you are looking to be the " leader " and I'm not a " Follower ". My son was killed almost 4 yrs. ago @ the age of 25. So, by your uninformed comments, I lose no sleep. Some people in this mundane life we just do not get along with, so place your " Bully Tactics " somewhere else. Like in the ground. ALL your negaitivity, shows anger issues. We ALL have our own opinions and that is that. Why does it look like your opinion is the be all and end all. This place or so I thought was different. A place where EVERYONE respects ALL opinions. Looks like maybe I was wrong ?? Maybe, just maybe you read what I wrote in the WRONG context ? This place I thought was NOT devised to bash people. Live and learn.
To waste my time, is only feeding your negativity, so Off I go. Don't write back, as I really cannot be bothered with closed minded and negative people. I AM owed an appology for this !!!!
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Ignorance feuls fear. They cannot fathom the concept of " Free Thinking " and that scares the heck out of them. I've also seen it in " our community " when some are asked to do a Ritual, they bail. Don't know why. Could be maybe the old way of thinking, but I wish I did know that one. ??? Any advice ?
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